The Godz interview with Larry Kessler
The Godz were a New York City-based avant-noise psychedelic band that originally existed from 1966 to 1973.
The Godz musicians were guitarist Jim McCarthy, bassist Larry Kessler, autoharpist Jay Dillon, and drummer Paul Thornton. They started the band after Larry Kessler met Jim McCarthy and Paul Thornton when they all took jobs in the 49th Street location of the musical instruments store Sam Goody’s.
Lester Bangs published “Do the Godz Speak Esperanto?” in Creem magazine (December 1971): “What makes them so special? Well, theoretically, anybody can play like that, but in actual practice, it just ain’t so. Most people would be too stultified – after all, what’s the point of doing it if anybody can?…”
“Freedom from the music business boundaries”
Were all members of the band originally from New York?
Larry Kessler: I was, Paul Thornton was and Jim McCarthy was, Jay Dillon was from Jersey.
You met Jim McCarthy and Paul Thornton in the 49th Street location of the musical instruments store Sam Goody’s. How is it possible that three like minded people got the same job in this music store?
It was a coincidence but Sam Goody’s was the biggest music retailer in the city, so three guys who love music to be working there really aren’t too farfetched. Sam Goody’s was dealing in records mostly, instruments were a sideline. I was in sales and Paul Thornton and Jim McCarthy were in stock. We were all in the rock ‘n’ roll section, which was the smallest section at the time. Back then there were records for everything, learning languages, speeches, comedy, Broadway soundtracks and on and on. It was a more encompassing experience than it is now.
What were some early influences for you?
Ray Charles, Buddy Holly, Dion and the Belmonts, that’s the music that I liked. When I was a young kid my mother was a big fan of Frank Sinatra, Bing Crosby and Swing of the day.
What was the concept behind the band?
Um, well first to start the band. We started at my apartment and, uh, we were just getting high and playing music. It’s funny, the song that sold Bernard Stollman of ESP-Disk’ was the song ‘White Cat Heat’. Both Jim McCarthy and Paul Thornton were turned down by ESP, so I knew that Stollman wouldn’t want anything that sounded like anyone else’s, so I got the band to submit that one. I was already working as a salesman at ESP at that time, so I did have an in. I invited Stollman to a party where we performed ‘White Cat Heat’. He loved it and booked 3 hours at A-1 studios in NYC, to cut a single and we did an entire album… He was upset at first but he liked it enough to put it out.
A while ago I interviewed Bernard Stollman and he said that back in the ’60s there were only six employees and four of them were members of Godz. What can you tell us about this?
Jay Dillion was the Art director, I was the General manager, Paul Thornton was in the stock and Jim McCarthy, I think he was in shipping. I only took the job because Jim pointed it out to me, he didn’t want to be a salesman. I brought them in later. A very particular set of events led to the Godz coming together. Everything happened, just the way it had to happen, to make it a reality.
What is the concept behind the Godz music?
Freedom. Freedom from the music business boundaries, and the boundaries of what was the norm. And it was pretty stretched out at that time if you remember. The Beatles, the Rolling Stones were all doing great things, but we just took it further. Paul Thornton was really freaky when he was with us, but he was also friends with some establishment rock stars of the time, so he never completely let go.
There were other bands on your label like Cromagnon. Did you enjoy any of that? Were you influenced by the Fugs?
I never listened to any of that stuff … I was too involved with my own music. I loved the Fugs but they were never an influence on us musically, but we loved their attitude and their musical freedom, which they eventually lost when they signed to Warner Bros.
Tell us about recording ‘Contact High With the Godz’.
It was recorded at A-1 Sound Studio. The engineer loved us and actually played on the record. He never saw anything like us and wanted to be a part of it, so he ran out during the recording and made some noise just to be on the album. I think that was the effect the Godz had on people, they wanted to be a part of it and the basic simplicity of it meant that they could.
What was the songwriting process like?
We worked individually and together on songs. Lot of stuff was on the spot creation. We’d start playing, then someone would start singing and a song would form.
Later on we would bring individual songs and try to collaborate. On the fourth album we basically came in and did our own songs with different musicians. The only collaboration on the fourth album was Paul Thornton and I doing ‘Women Of The World’ and all of us on ‘Whiffenspoof Song’.
What was the scene like on the East Coast?
I would see a lot of bands come through New York. I saw Jimi Hendrix Experience, the Doors, Janis Joplin with Big Brother and the Holding Company all at the same club, Steve Paul’s the Scene. We were like the in-crowd hippies on the NYC scene, and Steve Paul loved the Godz, so we could go in there any time for nothing and we could see the best bands in the world for free. One night we went to the Park Place hotel to get high with Jimi Hendrix. We got off the elevator and this girl came out of the room screaming at him, and he was screaming at her and fighting. I looked at Paul Thornton and said let’s get out of here and we departed. That was my Jimi Hendrix experience. The Doors were booked for a whole week at Steve Paul’s Scene. We saw them and wow, I also saw Bob Dylan at West Chester. Also Max’s Kansas City was hot later in the scene, many of the pre-punk stars were there along with the Andy Warhol crowd. I met my wife there as well… It was a crazy time.
Who did the cover artwork for the albums?
That would depend on which album you mean. Jay Dillion made the first album, ‘Contact High With the Godz’. Michael Solden and Judy Parker did the second cover, ‘Godz 2’. The third cover, ‘The Third Testament’ was done by Cathy Graham and Ruthann Punich from Creem Magazine. ‘Godzunheit’ was done by [Larry thinks for a while], I don’t remember.
What’s the story behind making your second LP? Was it recorded in the same studio?
Yes it was recorded at A-1 Sound Studio as well. We were using electric instruments at that point. We were rehearsing and we were starting to get good and Stollman was starting to get us gigs. We actually got a sponsorship from Ampeg. Jay Dillion left after this album and we never saw him again.
“We were total anarchists”
What about concerts?
When we first started we did folk shows at the Greenwich Village clubs, but we were constantly getting thrown out and arguing with audiences who didn’t understand us … I think that’s why people say we were proto-punk. It was an adversarial role that we would take towards the audience, mostly because we’d be drunk or high. We got kicked out of the Cafe Au Go Go one snowy night for smoking pot in the club. We were total anarchists/punk rock type of thing. We were angry and people did not like us. We were totally misunderstood. You have to understand that people did not do that. As a performing artist, you did your best, looked nice and appreciated and thanked your audience. You were not supposed to antagonize and berate them. We did some big shows though. We got thrown out of almost every gig we did. We were thrown out of the Miss Greenwich village pageant, for being too loud and angry. This was probably why Jay Dillon left, I don’t think he was comfortable with that image and the shows. He wanted us to teach music to kids in schools, that was crazy in itself for us.
When Jay Dillon left the band, you recorded two more albums, ‘The Third Testament’ and ‘Godzhundheit’.
‘The Third Testament’ is where we put a lot of other musicians in the studio with us and had them play other instruments that they would not normally play. So, if you were a drummer you were now on the piano, if you played piano you were on the guitar and so on. They seemed to go along with and enjoy our atonal type of music.
Did you experiment with psychedelics? Did they have any impact on you?
Yes they did. We were always high on something. Alcohol, as well. Also speed, pot, hash and anything else … Although we all stayed clear of coke and heroin…. coke was too expensive and heroin was way too scary.
Tell us about ‘Godzhundheit’.
All three of us, but we were all in other bands at that point. After the Lester Bangs article on the Godz, Stollman wanted us to try and capitalize on it. We all went in the studio and cut this last album with all of our musician friends. Our dynamic on that album was different. It wasn’t strained but it wasn’t friendly. I had recently come back from Baltimore after breaking my neck in a diving accident and I started working for Stollman again. He said that since we all were in other bands he would pay for studio time for us all to record that last album.
What would be the craziest thing that happened?
We did a show for Meher Baba, the guru in North Carolina. When we played we opened up for Meher Baba and someone spiked the punch with LSD and everyone, even cops and security were tripping.
What can you tell me about the recent ‘Gift from the Godz’.
We started recording it in 2007 in Baltimore. I had some new songs and Jimmy redid two songs that he did with the Godz. Paul Thornton did an original song and two covers. He did a Hank Williams song and a cover of Buffy Saint Marie’s ‘Universal Soldier’. Jimmy and I wrote two songs together ‘Bustin My Ball’ and ‘Dead and Gone’. All the songs from these sessions are available on the CD.
After the sessions, things started falling apart. Old feelings came back to the surface and we split once again. I have resolved to keep going and keep the spirit of the Godz alive. I assembled some great new players and started my association with Manta Ray Records in 2010. One of these players, Rick Sambuco, has been playing with me for the last couple years now, we have a great chemistry together on stage and in the studio. We started up a new band and have been recording new songs. We’ve also rehearsed some Godz favorites and have taken the group out live for some preliminary shows before we hit the road.
We will be out touring to promote ‘Gift from the Godz’ which was a collaboration of Godz material and new material written for this CD. We also did a newer version of ‘Turn On’ with Jay Dillon’s voice on this and on ‘Women of the World’ from the fourth album, ‘Godzundheit,’ so it’s kind of like he is on the record with us. One of the things I like about working with Manta Ray Records is I get a chance to work with some of the next generation of producers. On the track ‘Women of the World,’ Manta Ray Records producer Robby Gosweiler took ‘Women of the World’ into dubstep mode and put a whole new spin on the Godz’s sound.
Is there a chance for something new?
Doubtful but anything’s possible. We still stay connected.
What else occupies your life?
I love vinyl records and have a store selling vintage records.
What are you currently listening to and what are you reading?
I’m reading my grandchildren’s books and listening to my wife, finally.
Thank you, Larry.
Thanks for all the support over the years and for keeping the music alive, We’ll see you out on the road. Stay freaky!
Klemen Breznikar
The Godz Facebook
