So, if you don’t mind, let’s go back right
at the beginning…
You are originally from the East Coast,
is it true that you were born in the Bronx?
This is true! I’m from New York.
How was it like when you grew up?
When I lived in the Bronx, well… growing up
there was kind of interesting. It is New York and it is one of the most
interesting places on the planet. There’s so much to do and see and I was an
avid sports fan so I could go to see The NY Yankees play. I played a lot of
sports myself. There were a lot of outlets for that and also for music. I used
to go downtown to Manhattan with friends and we go to Birdland and other Jazz
places and, you know, watch the really great musicians play. I think that
people who come from NY, if they take advantage of it, are around some of the
greatest situations in the world, best musicians and artists. Because people
from other places, other states, other countries go to NY to act and play, to
study music and study writing. So you have the advantage of people coming to
your city, bringing their talent with them and you don’t have to travel very
much. It’s a melting-pot. So, I think that was really cool. I mean, you’ve got
great stuff like museums, the Natural History, the NY Public Library on 2nd
Avenue.You’ve got the zoo, the best zoo in the world is in the Bronx… the Bronx
Zoo. You’ve got all kind of places that you can go and take advantage of for
educational purposes and just to broaden your views of the world.
I feel that was the greatest part about
growing up in NY… It had its disadvantages. In my neighbourhood it started to
get…. It started to get tough! There were a lot of gangs started to come up in
the late 50’s.That’s when it was starting to get downright dangerous. That was
the disadvantage of being a teenager in a dangerous neighbourhood, you really
had to watch yourself. But you know, it makes you street smart!
Do you come from a musical background or
are you the only artist in the family?
The only person in the family who had any
musical ability was my dad, he could sing really well. And he could play the
drums, same as me.
Well, actually my next question was about
your discovery of the drums, where it came from… What attracted you to that
particular instrument. So it came from your dad?
Yeah! I think if you have a talent, at
least me at a very early age, (I was maybe 7 or 8 years old), you just
naturally gravitate towards it. I watched drummers on television. My uncle was
a musicologist and a copyist for the army band at WestPoint. He bought me my
first snare drum and sticks and brushes when I was 9. He was also a kind of
saxophone player and even in our first little jam session in my house, my uncle
pulled out his saxophone and we started playing old swing stuff. He noticed and
said that I had an unusual gift for it. So even at an early age, it was just
totally natural for me to be able to play the drums. I couldn’t understand why
everybody couldn’t do it!
So, before you joined The Knickerbockers,
you were in a New York band called The Castle Kings. What sort of music did you
play?
Yeah! Well you know, the street doo-wap,
rock’n’roll, Elvis, Carl Perkins, Jerry Lee Lewis, The Isley Brothers, Little
Richard- the early rock’n’roll stuff.
One late afternoon, we were standing
outside in front of Atlantic Records. We just had a meeting with Dot Records,
they were in the same building as Atlantic. So we’re standing outside,
harmonizing, waiting for one of the guys’ dad to pick us up- this is a true
story- harmonizing to some goofy song that one of the guys in the band wrote
and Ahmet Ertegun, the president of Atlantic Records heard us and told us to
meet him the next day. So we did! He actually signed us to a contract and we
recorded 3 or 4 records. I was recording with some of the legends of the
business. People like Phil Alley, Phil Spector, Ahmet Ertegun and his brother
Nesuhi. These guys were legends and we were in the studio with them and I
didn’t know who they were! So I mean, at a very early age, we were doing things
with the heavyweights of the business and we didn’t even know it.
Apart from being an amazing drummer, you
also sing… They wrote somewhere that you are part of a somehow limited club of
singing drummers. Is it true you that you joined The Knickerbockers because of
that extra talent and why were they looking for a drummer who could sing?
They were looking for a drummer and the
first time I saw The Knickerbockers was in a neighbourhood venue. It was a
supermarket that had been emptied, sold-out and it was reopened to do a little
party on Memorial Day. I was walking down the street and I heard this music so
I went back and they were set up playing as a trio. Buddy, the saxophone player
was playing the drums, really well, and I thought, boy this is a band I’d love
to play with! A couple of weeks or months later, they called me up because
they’d heard I was a drummer and that I was looking for work. So I went and set
up in John and Beau’s house and we played, but my drumming skills were a little
bit on the amateur side because I was still young. Then they asked me to sing,
I sang some rock’n’roll stuff and John and Beau’s mum heard me sing and she
said “Hire that guy, he does sound good”! So my skills with drumming didn’t get
me the work, it was the singing. Then I improved as a drummer because you get
to play a lot. Also, Buddy taught me a lot of stuff on the drums that he got
from other good drummers. But it was actually my voice that got me the job.
Actually my next question was about your
first experience of the studio with The Knickerbockers. But it wasn’t in fact
your first because you just said you recorded with your previous band.
According to Beau, it was pretty intimidating to experience the studio for the
first time. How did you feel about that?
Actually, I was really thrilled. I thought
recording was really exciting, that was the next step to being a real musician.
The next step after that was, I don’t know, money and fame and the journey
through the studio was the way to get there. I thought it was a great
opportunity and I love listening to stuff that you played and then you listen
to it back. I love doing that, I still love it, it’s just no different.
Absolutely no different, I still love to record! Music as an art form is like a
painter, who paints a picture and can step back and look at it. But if you’re
playing live in a nightclub, you can’t step back and listen to what you did. So
I always thought that the neatest part of the music process was somebody
recording what you did. I love to be recorded live too… I feel that it’s a real
way to learn from your mistakes and learn from what you did well.
At the time, you met the producer Jerry
Fuller…
We met Jerry Fuller on the East Coast, up
in Albany NY. We were playing in a place called, believe it or not, The
University Twist Palace! He came through as an artist trying to…he was in
Buffalo NY, which is in the Western side of the state. So he did a little tour,
trying to sell himself as an artist and he was working his way down to
Manhattan. He was going to open an East Coast publishing company for 4 Stars
Music. So on the way there, he was playing with all these bands, singing and he
was already a writer of 4 hit records himself. He did “Travelling Man”… When he
ran into us, he really liked us a lot. I remember at one point, we were doing
some rock’n’roll stuff and then he said “You guys wouldn’t happen to know
“Misty”, the old Johnny Matis tune?”. And we just laughed, Buddy started
playing the intro and boom we were into it! He was just flabbergasted that a
rock’n’roll band could play “Misty” with such sophistication. Beau, the
guitarist is a master of chord progression. He was really well schooled in that
kind of genre. So Jerry was really impressed with the ability as a band to play
a song like “Misty” with such flair. That blew him away. So he called the West
Coast people at Challenge Records and he told them about us. We did some demo
stuff in New York studios. Challenge Records was not really that big of a
record company but, you know, we did that to, I don’t know, to show off our
abilities to the record company.
So you did find yourself playing the Red
Velvet Club in Hollywood quite regularly…
Jerry wanted us to move to the West Coast
so he got hold of the owner of the Red Velvet and he booked us there. It was a
kind of a neat venue because a lot of people from television and the music
industry would go there to hang out. It was like a local watering hole for the
celebrities! So we got the gig there and… you know, the rest is history. We got
a hit record a month later!
Is it there that you first met Bill Medley
and especially Bobby Hatfield of The Righteous Brothers with whom you
collaborated a few years later?
Yeah, they used to come in and listen to us
and we got them to sit in with us a bunch of times. We got friendly with them
and… You see, the thing is the show “Shindig” was being shot at ABC Studios
which was close to home for them. So they would do their “Shindig” show and
drive up Sunset Boulevard out West to where they lived in Beverly Hills. They
would drive by the Red Velvet and drop in. Everybody heard about this group
(The Knickerbockers) in the business and how good we were so we just drew a lot
of curiosity seekers to see what we were all about.
So after the release of “Lies”, the band
wanted “Just One Girl” as the second single but your record company Challenge
wanted “One Track Mind”. In retrospect, do you still think that was a mistake?
I find both songs very exciting and bursting with energy…
I think “Just One Girl” was a more exciting
record but it’s all conjecture to what would have been a hit. You never know,
but the song was written by one of the members of the band and “One Track Mind”
was written by Keith Colley and his wife Linda. The record was good and we
liked it. It was a good song and I thought we did a good job on the record, but
like I said, in this business you never know what’s gonna hit and what isn’t.
With the original copy of “Lies”, the record company had assigned it to be the
B side. If it wasn’t for B. Mitchell Reed, one of the big DJs in Los Angeles at
the time, who used to come in and see us at the Red Velvet… he asked our
promotional guy when he brought the record up to him and said “Where did you
guys record that ‘Lies’ song that they play in the club?”. He replied, “Yeah,
that’s the B side” and B. Mitchell Reed, without even hesitating went, “No, it
ain’t now!” and put it on the air. He didn’t even listen to it, he just put it
on the air, put the needle down and said “Here’s the brand new record by The
Knickerbockers!”
You also mentioned the lack of time in the
studio when you were recording, which must have been very frustrating.
Nevertheless, the band sounded very tight and that rhythm section between you
and John was really happening!
Well, we’ve been together for a while and
John and I always had a good groove together. We used to rehearse like crazy
before we went in the studio so we knew in front that we won’t get the time to
mess around in the studio. I’m kind of a proponent of that. I think that by
going in the studio and spending a lot of time on a track, you loose the
spontaneity and the electric energy that you can get in the first 5 or 6 takes.
After that, it can get kind of stale. You know, on top of that, I’d have liked
to have spent more time on overdubbing vocals and other instruments. But for
the track itself, I like to have it well rehearsed and just play it. Try to get
that energy right away.
But you were still trying things in the
studio. For example, on that alternate instrumental track of “Lies” released by
Sundazed, we can hear you talking and trying to get a certain drum beat.
Oh yeah! Sure. You can rehearse all you
want but when you hear what you rehearsed played back, then you have an
objective view point of it. You can stand back and listen to it and discuss
good and bad points. Maybe we should try to change this or that. On the first
couple of cuts of “Lies”, I was playing too much stuff on the drums and it was
pointed out to me by the producer/engineer Bruce Spotnick. Bruce said, “You
know, maybe you should cut down on some of those fills”. So I thought about it
and the guys in the band agreed so I just kept it simple. You know, stuff like
that would happen. I was so used to playing that song live that I was just
playing too much stuff. And we were just young and still learning what works
and what doesn’t.
The band apparently did all the Dick Clark
tours. Do you remember playing with The Yardbirds?
I don’t think we ever played with The
Yardbirds that I can remember…
Because they did one of those tours when
Jeff Beck was in the band. That’s when he had a nervous breakdown and quitted!
I don’t remember that! I didn’t meet The
Yardbirds or Jeff Beck. They’re one of the greatest bands of all time. I love
Jeff Beck. I played his material in different bands over the years and I always
found his material really interesting.
Oh he’s a genius, he’s very unique…
Yeah, I agree… That’s it! He is unique. He
stands totally different from most of the other guitar players. You can’t
really tell his roots sometimes. You think, “where did he get that from?”.
So on those tours, did you feel at times
like close to a nervous breakdown or did you actually had quite a bit of fun?
A lot of guys had nervous breakdowns on the
road. The road is a killer.You know, when I first met the Rolling Stones, they
looked totally beaten down! In the interview I read that Beverly Paterson did
with Beau, he said they came in and they looked dark and scary. They looked
like they were undertakers! He really couldn’t believe the way they looked and
acted. They didn’t say hello to anybody, they just looked spent.
Yeah, it’s true that touring is very
tiring…
It’s the hardest thing you’ll ever do in
your life. Doing one-nighters, travelling and putting out all that energy every
night. It’s very hard. I mean, look what happened to Clapton back in the 60’s.
He had to go in for rehab for a while because he was using drugs to get him up
and down. That’s where drugs came in. The guys would be using the upper drugs to
get up and then the downer drugs to go to sleep. First thing you know, you’re
addicted.
Jerry Fuller once commentated on the very
separate personalities in the band, something that makes the nucleus of a good
group. Judging from the pictures, you seem rather outgoing and from your
playing, very energetic. How would you describe Beau, John and Buddy back then?
Well, we were all pretty young and we all
had the same sort of East Coast sense of humour. Self-depreciating, poking fun
at one another a lot but knowing it was fun. I mean, we still make one another
laugh. The last time we were together in 1990, we were just cracking up all the
time!
It was that reunion, wasn’t it?
Yeah, and we still have that same look
about things. Jerry loved being around us because we were constantly just
cracking jokes about each other. Similar outlook on life! Yeah, we had a lot of
energy. I talk to Beau regularly, he’s still playing. He’s doing a little Jazz
solo thing locally.
You co-wrote “Come And Get It” with Beau Charles
and “Can You Help Me” with Jerry Fuller. Did you write the music or the lyrics?
The lyrics and the melody. That’s how I
write and then I go to someone who plays a cordial instrument and put chords to
the melody that I wrote. Then we discuss that until we come up with something
that we both like. I always write both the lyrics and the melody. I just walk
in, sing the song and then they’ll figure out what I’m trying to say with the
chords.You know, songs occur to me in the most mysterious ways. I find myself
singing and saying “Hey, that’s a song!”. It’s almost as if I’m not even
listening to what my mind is doing until I had stepped back and go “Wait a
minute, that’s a song!”.
So you were the last to join The Knicks and
the first to leave…
Unless you consider that Buddy kind of
disappeared… After we had “Lies” and after we had toured a lot, we were kind of
looking for another record company but we were stuck with Challenge. They would
not let us go, it was a mess. Buddy got into using substances and one night he
didn’t show up to work. We were playing a place out in the Valley called The
Rag Doll. We played the first set without him and I called his home. His wife
said “Oh yeah, he left about an hour” and we said “Hum… that’s weird!”. He never
showed up and I didn’t see Buddy again for years, until after I joined The
Righteous Brothers. He just skipped out of town and left everybody. So he was
the first one to leave… That was one of the reasons that I wanted to leave
because it just wasn’t the same without him. He was a pivotal player in the
band, he was a very powerful player and when he left I felt…You know when you
get used to 4 guys and you think like one mind, when part of it is gone you
kind of have a big gap in the energy and the process of making music. We really
missed him. We tried to get other guys. We tried drummers and then we tried a
keyboard player, he was a let down. So the band at that time was kind of
flandering.
So at the time, did you feel a bit bitter
and felt the band could have achieved even more or was it “pas de regrets” (no
regrets) and you were looking forward to the future?
Well, a little of both. I think that when
Buddy left we were kind of lost. Buddy was one of those kind of guys…On one
side of the coin, he was very brilliant and on the other side of the coin, he
was a high maintenance kind of guy you had to baby-sit because he had some
issues. It’s true of a lot of great players. When he left, we didn’t exactly
know what to do. So when Bobby Hatfield hit on me to do the Righteous
Brothers’thing, I then thought “Yeah, let’s go there” because the band was not
going into any direction. Also, you have to remember Beau had spoken to me in a
coffee shop in Seattle while we were on the road, about seriously considering leaving
the band. He wanted to just quit playing for a while. So he was not up and full
of energy like he was anymore, he wasn’t happy. He wanted to spend more time at
home with his family and he planted that seed in my head. So when I was
approached by Bobby Hatfield to join The Righteous Brothers, I had nobody at
all so it was time to make a change.
You recorded the album “Rebirth” in 1969 on
Verve/MGM. How much did you write on it and did you play drums as well?
Yeah, I wrote a song called “Nobody’s Gonna
Take Me” and I played drums on every cut. I didn’t really want to because my
skills as a drummer had eroded a bit as I had not played much. I wanted a band
sound and I wanted the same drummer on the whole album but couldn’t get anybody
to be available for the whole project. I also produced the album with guitarist
Barry Rillera and the engineer, mixing and arranging, Bobby would get bored and
leave.
All the major Universities in America and
clubs like the Coconut Grove in Hollywood. We played in Japan and the
Phillipines and were regulars in Las Vegas. We had sell-out crowds, we were a
very popular act at the (legendary) Sands Hotel in Vegas. I was with the
Righteous Brothers for over 4 years. I got really good by the time Bobby decided
to take a break. I wanted to carry on but Bobby didn’t want to so he broke the
act.
You also appeared on many TV shows.
Yeah, we did the Smothers Brothers and Glen
Campbell’s Good Time Hour amongst others (note: both can be found on YouTube.
They did a great Sam & Dave medley on the Smothers Brothers Show).
Around the same time, you signed a record
deal with Columbia Records as a solo artist.
Yeah, Jerry Fuller left Challenge Records
and went to work for Columbia. I recorded 3 singles including “I Got The Best
Of You”. I had a dual contract with both Columbia and Verve/MGM which is quite
unusual. Jerry discovered Gary Puckett (and the Union Gap) and he had the songs
that became hits for Gary like “Young Girl” and “Woman Woman”. I was supposed
to record them before he did but my previous label Challenge would not let me
go. I had to record an album to close the contract. It’s called “How Can I
Forget” and has recently resurfaced on iTunes and other digital downloads
outlets. One single was released at the time called “Drown In My Broken Dreams
/ Always Leaving, Always Gone”.
To close the subject on the 60’s, what do
you miss the most and the least about that decade?
Well, to me that was one the most
interesting eras of music because it was very experimental.
And very creative…
Yeah, a lot of creativity. The artistry was
being allowed to happen. The record companies were more or less standing back
and just taking what the artists gave them and then marketing it. Whereas later
on, what they did was tell the artists what song to do to make it easier for
them to sell it. Instead of the marketers saying “Just give me your art and
I’ll market it”, they say “We want this so we can make it easier for our
marketing department to sell it”. That wasn’t happening in the 60’s. I don’t
think that Jimi Hendrix would have made it today. Or The Doors, or a lot of
bands like Crosby, Still, Nash & Young. I don’t think they would have
passed the front door. Even The Eagles. Because they were different, they were
creating something entirely new. Even Otis Redding. I mean, who sounds like
Otis Redding? Nobody. They would say, “Well you don’t sound enough like so and
so therefore we’re not going to sign you”. But in those days, it was much more
open policy and it was a great era of music. The 50’s had some great moments
too. Then in the 70’s & 80’s and even the 90’s, the marketing took control
because they could see the huge amount of money that was being made.
We are now in the 70’s… In the
mid-Seventies, you were in a band called OASIS, with a real hot Soul/Funk sound
like Tower Of Power.
Yeah, we had 5 vocalists, we had a great
arranger and had a really good writer in Coleman Head. We had a lot of good
ingredients vocally so it worked out. It was one of the best bands I was with.
I think The Knickerbockers and Oasis were two of the best bands I’ve ever been
with in terms of vocals and cohesiveness together, as far as a unit, as far as
playing in a band.
Did you sing in Oasis?
Oh yeah, I was the lead-singer.
Did you record anything?
Yeah. Jerry Fuller recorded and produced an
album for us up in San Francisco at Wally Heider studio. It never came to
fruition because I think we just didn’t know what we were doing enough. Jerry
got us some potential deals but not with any major labels. And the business at
that time was changing. There were more smaller independent labels starting to
happen. There were a couple of them that wanted to release our stuff but we were
trying to get a major record deal. And then the band started breaking up! The
bass player Victor Conte hem… of the steroids scandal fame, you know who he is?
He’s Bruce’s cousin, isn’t he?
Yeah, he got embroiled in a big steroids
scandal with other athletes.
Yes I heard about that…
Yeah well, he was kind of pushy as far as
telling Jerry Fuller what he wanted out of the record companies. Jerry called
me and said “ What’s this guy want?” (laugh) “Who does he think he is?” you
know… So he kind of broke up the band in terms of… I didn’t want to play with
him anymore. I got fed up with him. And so did the trombone player Jim Waller.
Jim was the guy who started Oasis, he put it together from the ground up and he
got fed up with Victor. He was a tough guy to get along with.
Bruce Conte was not in that band, was he?
No, Bruce and I formed another band called
Hot Street.
Yeah, Hot Street…
That was a good band too.
Was it a similar Soul/Funk type of sound?
Yeah, but we had more of a universal
appeal. Hot Street was a real good club act because we did some Top 40
material. I did some Blues material like in a Ray Charles big band sort of way
and we did all The Stones material. So it was a mixture of Top 40, Blues,
original music which we had and we even did some of Coleman’s tunes. It was
kind of an interesting little package. The line-up did change a few times.
We had Julian Molina on bass and a guy by
the name of Elliot Smith on keyboards. It was me, Bruce, Elliot, Julian and a
girl singer, Terry Smith. We also had Louis Pain on keys. Then we had another
mixture with Chester Thompson on keys from The Tower of Power who started
playing with Santana. He was in the band and we had a bass player by the name
of Gary Calvin and that was another good style. But every time we changed
players, the band would change a little bit. Which is OK, you know, it went
from this to that to the other thing but it was always the same school of
songs. It kind of had a Tower of Power, Doobie Brothers, a San Francisco City
band kind of sound.
Yeah, you were playing mainly in the Bay
Area of San Francisco, weren’t you?
Pretty much, yeah… we played all over the
whole Bay Area from the Southern part all the way down to St Louis Obispo, all
the way up to San Ramon and everywhere in between. Redwood City, Burlington, we
played all the cities throughout the Bay Area for 2 years. That was tough
because we played 4 or 5 one-nighters in different clubs every week.
Were you living in Northern California at
the time?
Yeah! I had moved from Fresno to the South
of the Bay Area.
You’re now back in the Bay Area after
spending a few years in Vegas. Tell us a bit more about your time in Sin City.
I put a band together, the Jimmy Walker
Band, with some good musicians I knew in town. Pat Marlin on
keyboards/saxophone, Carl Gottman on bass, Tim Manion on guitar. Tim moved to
California so we got TK Kellman who used to play with Bobby Darin. This was a
really good band and we played all over town, including BB King’s. Most of the
times I sang upfront, that’s what I really want to do.
You’re not exactly shy (laugh)
No, absolutely not! I’m really good with an
audience. I have a lot of experience of being up front and that’s what I love
to do. I mean, all through The Knickerbockers, Buddy would play drums and I was
the other front man. And of course I did that for over 4 years with Bobby
Hatfield as the Righteous Brothers.
How do you keep your voice in shape?
You know, I sing better now than ever
before. I don’t drink, smoke, take drugs, anything.
Not even the odd glass of wine sometimes?
No, nothing. I just wanted to see what it
would be like to be completely clear and free of any kind of altering
substances. So I quit drinking over ten years ago. I used to smoke Marijuana
and I just got fed up with it, and just said “Enough of that!”.
That’s great but you don’t miss the glass
of wine though? (laugh)
No, actually I don’t miss it at all. And I
used to love a glass of wine! But I just decided… once I make up my mind about
something, I’m kind of stubborn. I really wanted to feel what it was like to be
completely free of any crutches, substances, you know, and just to use my own
mind and my own self to see what it was like. And I like it! It’s a neat thing.
So while in Vegas you recorded the album
“Playing to Win”.
Yeah, I wrote all the tunes, all the lyrics
and the melodies. A friend of mine, Jeff Palmer, did all the keyboard work and
it’s all sampled. All the drums are samples. It really sounds like a band but
it’s not! He did all the chord changes and most of the arranging and I did all the
writing and the singing. It’s all me. I even did the vocal backgrounds.
What does it sound like?
You know, it’s a mixture of stuff. The
closest thing to describe it would be a kind of Pop/Rhythm’&’ Blues album.
There are different beats, different kind of feels. A little Johnny Guitar
Watson, a little Steely Dan, a little this, that and the other. I am a Soul
& Blues singer but I don’t like to be labelled.
Where can we find it?
It’s available for downloads on CD Baby,
iTunes and all the main digital outlets.
What’s your current project?
In the past few months, I have performed
live with 2 really good musicians, Blues guitarist Alvon Johnson and bass
player Bill McCubbin.
I’ve wrote some new songs and I plan to
record them for a new album. I’m also working on doing a tour in Europe. I
never played there and I think my style of music would get over really well.
Europe has more of an open mind artistically than in America. They’re far more
advanced as far as listening to what you do, rather than saying “No, I like
this and I want you to play that”. It’s less plastic and there’s more respect
for artists like me.
Interview made by Katy Levy/2013
© Copyright
http://psychedelicbaby.blogspot.com/2013
